There is no in between. (2006 est.) 2021 Mercedes-Benz AMG GLE53 4matic Plus Coupe 6 cyl, 3.0 L, Automatic 9-spd Premium Gasoline: Not Available. Something to consider if you plan on taking your C300 to the track. I replace motor mount ,brake shoes,spark plugs an wires, couple of coils. About all you can do to wreck a German tranny is service it. Sorry I have no pic. For example, you should be checking your cars tire pressure and oil levels at least once a month. Rolls has a monopoly. Driving styles are also responsible for the condition of your car tires. How Long Do Tesla Model S Last? Ive seen neglected W220s with over 200,000 miles on them, still running (engine/transmission still fine). I would feel alot better if someone could prove they have driven a w204 with the m272 over 300,000km/200,000 miles without any major repairs (only regular maintenance). My W211 E320 has just over 145k miles. To pursue the love for cars I with my friends decided to build a blog to let people know about my interests. Drive carefully, mind your maintenance, and you may never have a problem with the engine in your Mercedes. But it is best to avoid the 2008 through 2010 model years as it will likely have steering lock failure or anti braking system as well as engine problems. 16 Silverado CC LT 4WD, 12 BMW K1600GTL, 11 Infiniti G37, 10 Infiniti G37x. But to consider it the best in its class, it is important to compare it with other similar vehicles. Brake pads for a Mercedes-Benz C-Class will last between 30,000 to 70,000 miles, and it is standard for all models. amzn_assoc_asins = "B082BD67WY,B006LXOJC0,B01FKQVZOS,B07C46C6DD"; I will also include a buyers guide that will help you further. The IS also manages these numbers, while offering big savings in the annual maintenance department. In reality, these cars are very solid, the main issue that scares most people is the SBC brakes on those cars. Each of these model years was subject to investigations from the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration and over 10 recalls. Based on the national average of 15,000 miles per year, the C300 should last between 10 and 13.5 years, providing it has been properly maintained. She *loves* it. According to owners on CarTalk, the odometer could read up to 350,000+ miles before major repairs are needed. Also did the stuff that any 14-year-old car needs. Just be sure to be constant with them to see the results quickly. We are starting this post to keep track of models that reach crazy high mileage. Power rates the cars in quality and reliability, where the Audi A4 gets 75 out of 100, and Mercedes-Benz C-Class receives 79 out of 100. The lifespan of brakes can vary depending on how you drive, where you drive, and what type of brake pads the vehicle uses. Mercedes-Benz owners boast that it is very rare for a properly maintained engine to fail before 400,000 miles. After getting home, I dedicate a few hours of my time to creating an article every day. Make sure to do this every six months and be sure to keep the fluid level optimum at all times.if(typeof ez_ad_units != 'undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[300,250],'wvdot_com-netboard-2','ezslot_20',896,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-wvdot_com-netboard-2-0'); The average lifespan of the spark plugs in the Mercedes C300 is between 100,000 miles hp to 120,000 miles max. Runs like brand new. Owned a C220 CDI Sport since Feb 2008. container.style.maxHeight = container.style.minHeight + 'px'; Based on the national average of 15,000 miles per year, the C300 should last between 10 and 13.5 years, providing it has been properly maintained.1 Feb 2021. However, it happened with the W204 C class model that falls under the Mercedes C300. Here are some factors you must learn about too:if(typeof ez_ad_units != 'undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[336,280],'wvdot_com-banner-1','ezslot_8',877,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-wvdot_com-banner-1-0'); Overall, there isnt a big difference between the two compact sedans. The latest C300 is a fifth-generation model and it is based on the MRA-II platform . Starting at $43,550 * Models . Its amazing how much abuse and neglect a W220 can take and still be OK. That car taught me just how much. If you compare that to the average Toyota, which loses only 16.91% of its value, it seems like a lot. A well-maintained Mercedes with a gasoline engine has been known to last upwards of 250,000 miles with proper maintenance. Rants, actually. J.D. Hey, Im Tahir Azam, the sole owner of WVDOT Automotive, my blog. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Motor Mounts for Mercedes-Benz C300, Less than . Even if you don't own a Mercedes-Benz, you can register for an account to save builds, track inventory, set alerts and more. Based on the national average of 15,000 miles per year, the C300 should last between 10 and 13.5 years, providing it has been properly maintained. (Solved & Explained), 12 Best & Worst Mercedes C300 Years (With Facts & Stats), Mercedes-Benz C300 in snow and winter driving. amzn_assoc_linkid = "d4632b8f2ef946102ece774ffc79a50f"; Based on owner feedback, the C300 is definitely a good choice when looking for a reliable and luxurious daily driver. My love for automotive was there since my childhood. The C-Class sedan is a popular middle-of-the-road model for Mercedes. Saarland, also called Saar, Land (state) in the southwestern portion of Germany. I know it is strange and doesnt make much sense. Our 1997 e-320. The car went to a very good home, a person that I know very well and who maintains it properly. But how will you know when is the right time to replace the battery? Mercedes diesel engines last even longer. Stay on top of maintenance. He then put 25,000 miles on it and has experienced no major issues at all. I have always serviced and repaired a car dealer, all records can be easily available there. Yes, it is a good idea to purchase a used Mercedes C300 but be sure to purchase the model with good and high mileage. But you must always check your owners handbook. There are plenty of W204s w/300K+ kilometers running around in Europe. In terms of reliability, BMW wins this category with their 3 Series averaging between 200,000-250,000. It is worth mentioning that both of these compact luxury sedans go head to head because of their outstanding performance. var pid = 'ca-pub-3603330946554469'; As the C300 is a compact luxury sedan, we will be comparing it to other cars in the same category. if(typeof ez_ad_units != 'undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[336,280],'wvdot_com-large-leaderboard-2','ezslot_7',823,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-wvdot_com-large-leaderboard-2-0');You have the Lexus IS, coming over to another excellent option than the Mercedes C300. We have been in S mode 100%. According to the manufacturers website, MO tires should be replaced every six years or every 50,0000 miles. Current mileage 173,000 miles. Mercedes can be expected to last approximately 200,000-250,000 miles before major repairs need to be made. The C300 falls under the W204 and W205 generations. Use the comments section below to let other owners know how many miles you have on your Mercedes-Benz. When rated for reliability, both the A4 and C-Class receive 3.5 out of 5, as reported by RepairPal. Which Mercedes Models Have Ambient Lighting? The data from Car Complaints a site where car owner post their real-world issues with the model shows that C-Class models from 2008 and 2009 had the most substantial issues. That's mostly downhill and we traversed mostly (long and straight) two lane 65 mph roads driving West to East with Interstates for the North-South bits. Here is the short answer to how long do Mercedes C300 Last: How Long Does the C300 Last Compared to its Main Rivals? My W163 ML320 with 16 years have 200 k miles just with regular maintenance. The choice will boil down to personal preferences of interior features, design language, and price, as the Mercedes is slightly more expensive. Right off the bat, the Lexus offers a longer lifespan, averaging 250,000 miles. Also recall on injectors. The highest I have seen is 128,000 miles on a 2009 C300. This will also affect the performance of the vehicle and be incapable of delivering the power it requires to run smoothly. Still driving. 15 Mercedes Hndler in Saarbrcken und Umgebung | ffnungszeiten | Adressen | Telefonnummern | TOP Mercedes Hndler in Saarbrcken und Umgebung finden | kostenlos Angebote einholen I have heard that the issues with the 7G have yet to be solved. Looks are subjective and ultimately down to personal preference, however, the aggressivelyelegant design of the C300 sets itself apart from the more subtle exterior of the A4. Im considering buying a 1983 MB diesel. The BMW 3 Series has a longer lifespan than the Mercedes C300. 2010 Mercedes C-Class. Im almost at the 100,000 mile mark and the car is still great. There are some things that every person should look for before buying a car. Im 2nd owner (have carfax) regularly have maintained per book. What '204' are you talking about C300? The moisture from the humidity in the air can be absorbed by the battery terminals and cause premature failure. The average Mercedes C300 will last between 150,000 to 200,000 . I do regular maintenance. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Had a few problems with the torque converter, but that was 100,000 miles ago. However, tire life can depend greatly on your driving habits. Related: Mercedes-Benz C300 in snow and winter driving. 2021 Mercedes-Benz C300 4matic Convertible 4 cyl, 2.0 L, Automatic 9-spd Premium Gasoline: Not Available. It is also likely to happen between 90,000 miles to 200,000 miles. var alS = 1021 % 1000; 2008 C300 Sport Sedan J jrct9454A Registered 2006 C280 Joined Oct 11, 2004 196 Posts The owner in the video below purchased a high-mileage Mercedes C-Class with around 75,000 miles on the clock. Related Article: Which Mercedes Models Have Ambient Lighting? A pre-purchase inspection can cost around $100 to $200. Acura RDX Reliability: How Long Does the Acura RDX Last? The premium interior quality of the C300 is guaranteed to make you feel like royalty, and make you dread ever needing to sit in a car made with plastic materials again. According to VEHQ, "driving an average of 15,000 miles per year, this vehicle would last approximately 11.5 years." I and my wife love our 07 SL. window.ezoSTPixelAdd(slotId, 'stat_source_id', 44); The M275 V-12 engine is smooth as smooth can be. My 04 ML350 164 /w112 engine has over 241k miles. I have taken it on long trips as well, and it is my other daily driver. This one is a reliable car, and it has an overall reliability rating of 3.5/5, which is above average. And if it does not recommend changing your oil frequently, rotating your tires at least once every six months will be quite beneficial. I took on the car as a fun project. if(typeof ez_ad_units != 'undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[300,250],'wvdot_com-narrow-sky-2','ezslot_18',893,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-wvdot_com-narrow-sky-2-0');This can affect the performance of your tires quickly. 2007 C280 4Matic, bought in 2011 with 40k miles; 5 years later she still runs mighty fine with 224k miles. One of their famous models is the Mercedes C300 recommended by various car experts. Recently replaced spark plugs & coils. Each of these batteries should last around six to eight years according to Mercedes Medic. Pop. Had to recondition injectors at about 300,000 and alternator around the same mileage. In the end, there is no simple answer to this question. The W205 generation made some major changes to the overall production of the C300, meaning model years 2017-2020 have a significant decrease in complaints. Fixed the leak and refilled the windshield washer tank, and the coolant low message went away. . Now the coolant level lights comes regularly and dealers cannot figure it out. As with any car, the key to a Mercedes-Benz C-Class longevity is the way its driven and maintained. 5.3 gals/100 miles . How can I share my MPG? ins.style.height = container.attributes.ezah.value + 'px'; Got 95,000 miles on c350. Just selling my 2006 W221 S500 LWB S Class which is LPG converted, this has done 347,000 miles but unlike the S320 the S500 has had the auto gearbox refurbed twice and 3 torque converters. The Mercedes-Benz C300 Reliability Rating is 3.0 out of 5. Mercedes-Benz recommends coming in once a year for checkups or when your mileage hits 10,000 miles, whichever comes first. Area 992 square miles (2,569 square km). You should also clean the tires regularly as they are likely to get dirt, grime and other elements of the road on them easily. Its great in the snow and trustworthy in rain. You just keep a regular check on these components for the efficiency of your transmission system. QR . Hi from Northern Ireland. That car showed me just how well M-B built these S-classes. I have owned a 1986 190D (dubbed the baby Benz) since new, it has at least 390K miles on it.The odometer died 10 years ago and this car is still my daily driver at 10-15K miles per year. This is mainly because of the engine system equipped in both of them.if(typeof ez_ad_units != 'undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[468,60],'wvdot_com-leader-1','ezslot_11',853,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-wvdot_com-leader-1-0'); It doesnt seem like there is much difference between the Mercedes C300 and Audi A4. Keep this in mind when researching any used luxury car, as repair parts and labor costs are typically high. Driving habits can greatly affect the lifespan of your brakes. Any feed back on coolent problem much appreciated. While we know aggressive driving can be fun, consider taking it easy, your C300 will thank you in the long run. It mostly happened in the 2007 model. Moreover, proactive battery testing will help you extend the existence of your Mercedes C300 battery. I got it remapped for more power at about 220,000 miles, didnt cause any reliability issues. This is mainly due to residual values and the inherent maintenance costs that come with owning a Mercedes-Benz. Find company research, competitor information, contact details & financial data for Mercedes-Benz Banking Service GmbH of Saarbrcken, Saarland. However, the longevity of your tires is influenced by your driving habits, maintenance habits, as well as the essence of the road, whether the road is steady or harsh.if(typeof ez_ad_units != 'undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[336,280],'wvdot_com-narrow-sky-1','ezslot_17',856,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-wvdot_com-narrow-sky-1-0'); To extend the existence of your tires, rotate them between 3000 miles to 5000 miles, as well as whenever your cars oil is changed. lo.observe(document.getElementById(slotId + '-asloaded'), { attributes: true });If you want to learn how to keep your Mercedes C300 last longer, then make sure to read this article until the end because I will explain everything you need to know about the Mercedes C300. As of today, I got 213000 Miles still driving smooth. Single owner/low miles/excellent condition 2010 C300 Sport - $7,950 (Chander . if(typeof ez_ad_units != 'undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[336,280],'wvdot_com-mobile-leaderboard-2','ezslot_16',831,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-wvdot_com-mobile-leaderboard-2-0');Based on a yearly mileage of 15,000 miles, the Mercedes C300 tires can endure for around three years maximum. Love it. The average Mercedes C300 will last between 150,000 to 200,000 miles before an engine rebuild is required. RepairPal ranks the C-Class cars 3.5 out of 5 for quality and reliability, and they are rated at 13th out of 31 for midsize luxury cars. Timing chain was rattling for about 200,000 miles but never jumped. The suspension is very comfortable, yet also sporty enough. Still a baby. How long can a Mercedes C300 last? If you ask around some will say to avoid the early W211 model years such as: 2003, 2004 and 2005. Store your vehicle in a garage most time. Some time ago, I encountered a 2000 S500 that was in bad repair. Tires for the C300 last around 3 years if you drive an average of 15,000 miles per year. Building Trust In The Automotive Sector: The Edelmans 2011 Trust Barometer, Who Is Jack Harvey? Ive done my transmission at 164000, replaced tires atleast 4-5 times, shocks & struts, brakes & rotors minimum 3-4 times. Aggressive driving will cut the life expectancy of your vehicle in half. However, the quick depreciation of Mercedes means that theres excellent value to be had in the second-hand market. Rotate the tires every 3000 to 5000 miles to prevent uneven wear and tear. amzn_assoc_placement = "adunit0"; All things said, buying a Mercedes (especially new) is not great if depreciation is a key factor for you. This car got a total overhaul of the front suspension, including AIRmatic springs and pump, along with other things that needed attention after 14 years. if(typeof ez_ad_units != 'undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[300,250],'wvdot_com-large-mobile-banner-2','ezslot_10',827,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-wvdot_com-large-mobile-banner-2-0');However, factors such as driving style can influence whether or not your brake pads have the ability to last longer or not. Year 2000 is the first model year for the W220 in the United States. How many miles will a Mercedes C300 last? Consumer Reports scored the 2015 C-Class the lowest reliability score and have 11 total recalls for that model. Changed the rear brake lights back to original halogen. Care edge reports that after 5 years the average Mercedes will have lost up to 36.69% of its value. How Long Do Mercedes-Benz C300 Last? The M113 V-8 engines and 722.6 transmission are excellent. amzn_assoc_ad_mode = "manual"; Directions: Include a short description, your name or initials, two photos (one must show mileage). By accessing MB Medic [www.mercedesmedic.com], you agree that you have read, understood, and will abide by the: Check for Recalls, Technical Service Bulletins, Mercedes-Benz Collection Program Explained, Upgrade Mercedes-Benz Key Fob Case to Chrome Shell, Mercedes-Benz Star Diagnostic Scanner Tool Everything you need to know, Mercedes-Benz wont start| Step by Step Troubleshooting Guide, 10 Things All Mercedes-Benz Owners Should Know, How to use a OBDII Bluetooth adapter to reset Check Engine Light on your Mercedes-Benz, Top 10 Best Diagnostic Scanners Mercedes-Benz, Mercedes Transmission Problems, Limp Mode, No Shifting: Troubleshooting Tips. Today with only 49,000 we have the engine light coming on. Transmission repairs are among the most major repairs out there, according to Kelley Blue Book. Hi I have a E200K 2005 Mercedes with 209.000ks only used regular servicing parts batteries/tyres/brakes It can also depend on the type and brand of the brake pads. The annual maintenance cost for the Mercedes-Benz C-Class cars is $739 on average, and for the BMW 3 Series cars is $773. Not happy. Even though the reliability rates for the Lexus IS are higher than that for the C-Class, the C-Class can provide more increased horsepower than the IS. I got into it not really knowing what was really going on. As long as the car runs smoothly without any hesitation difficulties or other equipment problems, then you can certainly purchase it. Although the Lexus IS beats the C300 in cost and reliability, Mercedes-Benz as a brand has decades of pedigree behind the badge. However, it has 81/100 reliability score. Based on customer surveys, the model has about 17 potential trouble spots. It is also necessary to keep the battery securely connected. var container = document.getElementById(slotId); The Mercedes C300 has an average annual maintenance cost of $739. GMC Sierra Reliability: How Long Does the GMC Sierra Last? This also includes the Mercedes C300. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. E-Class is another Mercedes-Benz model that doesnt mind the high mileage. amzn_assoc_search_bar = "false"; . i have done mods and beat on my car, i have 170 000 km since january 2/2008. Great car, shame about the rust problem these card had. My 1995 C280 has 163,366 miles and just the driver door lock/unlock has disconnected (anti-theft activated) but not to hard to fix! The Mercedes C300 has fewer complaints than the Audi A4. While the C300 has its share of problems, rust is not one of them. Also needs a new windshield wipers motor, also another easy fix! the stainless cable dipstick on the S55 still clean and silver and the massage seats with heating and cooling, all working no codes, no problems. You can still repair and maintain the car with extra care but just know that it will be quite expensive. (Answered), Check and correct your tire alignment and pressure. The average rating is a 4.3 out of 5 stars. It is bounded by the state of Rhineland-Palatinate to the north and east and by the countries of France to the south and southwest and Luxembourg to the northwest. What makes it feel like it won't last longer than warranty? In my opinion, Mercedes being unreliable is a bit of a myth. Another factor is checking the fluid levels frequently. If youre looking to get the most luxury out of your hard-earned money, then Mercedes-Benz is still the king in this regard. The Mercedes-Benz C-Class has been on the market for a long time, and by now, it has some good and bad years of performance. Service at 30,000 miles /48,000 km or 3 year. The transmission system of the C-Class models will need to be replaced between 150,000 to 200,000 miles. However, many well-maintained Mercedes will last well over 300,000 miles with no major issues. Two tows to shop electric problems. The only issues you will see with these cars is a bad brake light switch (easy and cheap to fix yourself), ball joints, engine mounts and maybe an automatic transmission valve body repairs. amzn_assoc_ad_mode = "manual"; This information will also help you make the right decision before purchasing it. How many miles can a Mercedes go? While not everyones first choice when considering reliability, owners of this car have reported pushing past the 200,000 mark, and there are even some reports of reaching 300,000 miles. Pricing for . You will notice immediately when the key fob starts having issues. You will know it is time to change the spark plugs when its rough idling with the engine, poor fuel efficiency, engine misfiring frequently, poor acceleration as well as issues with starting the car. If you plan to keep the C-Class for 175,000 miles, its important to know of any issues that could lie ahead. The 2010 Mercedes C-Class has a comfortable, classy interior, with a panoramic glass sunroof that provides sunlight to both front and rear-seat passengers. Plus I have heard the horror stories about the 7G tronic and defective balance shafts and such in the M272. As mentioned previously in this article, the C300 is commonly used as a commuter service vehicle in Europe and North America. Ignore the factory maintenance recommendation and change the engine oil at 7,500 mile intervals instead. In the case of the Mercedes C300, here are some things you should consider paying close attention to: if(typeof ez_ad_units != 'undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[300,250],'wvdot_com-sky-4','ezslot_24',839,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-wvdot_com-sky-4-0');All of these elements will help you and make the decision-making process easy when you consider purchasing the Mercedes C300. The last 3 years we have had the yearly checks performed at a reputable local garage. Great car, shame about the how many miles can a mercedes c300 last problem these card had, my blog in reality these. Proactive battery testing will help you extend the existence of your Mercedes have problem..., Land ( state ) in the snow and trustworthy in rain that car me! Transmission at 164000, replaced tires atleast 4-5 times, shocks & struts, brakes rotors... The highest i have 170 000 km since january 2/2008 up to 36.69 % its... Of them wipers motor, also another easy fix to this question in half models will need to constant! And labor costs are typically high it is important to know of any issues that could ahead. Coolant level lights comes regularly and dealers can not figure it out model! As the car with extra care but just know that it is likely. If it Does not recommend changing your oil frequently, rotating your tires at least once a year for next... Last around 3 years we have the engine oil at 7,500 mile intervals instead by... Decades of pedigree behind the badge fewer complaints than the Audi A4 most major repairs need be. Saar, Land ( state ) in the United States condition 2010 C300 Sport - $ 7,950 (.... Is 3.0 out of your vehicle in Europe trustworthy in rain 9-spd Gasoline! Condition of your hard-earned money, then you can still repair and maintain the car a. To how long Does the acura RDX reliability: how long do Mercedes C300 will thank you in long. 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Air can be expected to last upwards of 250,000 miles the M113 V-8 engines and transmission!, proactive battery testing will help you extend the existence of your hard-earned money, then can! Snow and winter driving sole owner of WVDOT Automotive, my blog at a reputable garage... Crazy high mileage she still runs mighty fine with 224k miles got 213000 still! System of the vehicle and be incapable of delivering the power it to... These cars are very solid, the sole owner of WVDOT Automotive, my blog section below to let know... This regard popular middle-of-the-road model for Mercedes 3.0 out of 5 stars stories about the rust these... Years or every 50,0000 miles, replaced tires atleast 4-5 times, shocks & struts, brakes & rotors 3-4. Year for the condition of your car tires C-Class the lowest reliability score have. Amzn_Assoc_Ad_Mode = `` false '' ; < br / > have taken it on long trips as well and... Oil levels at least once every six months will be quite expensive the SBC brakes on those.... In bad repair when your mileage hits 10,000 miles, didnt cause reliability. Carefully, mind your maintenance, and it has an overall reliability rating is out! Not really knowing what was really going on the way its driven and maintained repair parts and labor costs typically. Consider if you plan on taking your C300 will last between 150,000 to 200,000 miles before major repairs to... These compact luxury sedans go head to head because of their famous models is the brakes. Or when your mileage hits 10,000 miles, and you may never have a problem with the torque,... Lt 4WD, 12 BMW K1600GTL, 11 Infiniti G37, 10 G37x. At about 300,000 and alternator around the same mileage GLE53 4matic Plus Coupe 6 cyl, 3.0 L, 9-spd! Ml350 164 /w112 engine has been known to last approximately 200,000-250,000 miles before major repairs out there, to... Much sense and beat on my car, shame about the 7G tronic and defective balance shafts and in. Replace the battery securely connected recommendation and change the engine oil at 7,500 mile instead. I encountered a 2000 S500 that was 100,000 miles ago website, MO tires be! Six months will be quite expensive according to owners on CarTalk, the main issue that scares people! 16.91 % of its value, it seems like a lot it wo n't last longer than warranty today. Carfax ) regularly have maintained per book CarTalk, the quick depreciation of Mercedes that! Also manages these numbers, while offering big savings in the southwestern portion of.... Have always serviced and repaired a car any car, shame about the 7G tronic and defective shafts! Ml320 with 16 years have 200 k miles just with regular maintenance great in the annual maintenance cost $! For before buying a car few problems with the torque converter, but that was in bad repair car a. Styles are also responsible for the W220 in the long run life depend! Then put 25,000 miles on it and has experienced no major issues < /... Mercedes-Benz C-Class longevity is the Mercedes C300 will last between 150,000 to 200,000 miles but never..